Is Modern R&B a Victim of Ageism? A Roundtable Discussion

The state of modern R&B is often a hot topic around these parts, so instead of listening to my usual rants, I figured I’d open the floor up to four superfans and industry experts, straight from the Soul In Stereo Cypher on Facebook. Join us there if you enjoy these types of debates.

Joining in our convo will be:

Nicolette Carney, occasional Soul In Stereo columnist Nashville native and photojournalist extraordinaire on the West Coast.

My girl Diane Hawkins, who remains undefeated in all things Prince and Luther Vandross. She’s a Chi-town native currently in Louisville, Ky.

Rylic Zander, an LA-based singer/songwriter/rapper who stays runway ready and is a beast on social media.

And finally, industry vet George Littlejohn, Co-Founder & Co-CEO at Purpose Music Group, reppin’ Brooklyn to the fullest.

Sit back and enjoy their insights into the past, present and future of the genre we all love.

Approximately what year/era did you become an R&B fan? Which artists were the first ones who captured your attention?

Diane: In the early 70s (Yes, I’m old). Stevie Wonder, Gladys Knight and the Pips, Billy Paul and any Motown artist that my mother and father played on the radio and records were my first exposure. Later, it was Prince because his music came out in the late 70s.

Nicolette: There are two eras where I fell in love with R&B. The 90s was the first time and it was acts like TLC, Tamia, Babyface, Aaliyah, and others that caught my attention. The second time was the mid 2000s when Neo Soul was really popular and that was really foundational in the early stages of my creative journey.

Rylic: I started really paying attention to R&B in high school back in the mid-00s, which was an easy transition as a hip-hop fan because of the collabs of the late 90s like “I Can Love You,” “Touch Me, Tease Me,” and so many others. I think the first R&B artist to catch my eye was Faith Evans but the first one that I said I was a fan of was Usher. 

George: The early 70s is when I started and I feel truly blessed to have experienced in real time the funk, disco, stand-up vocal groups, self contained bands, jazz fusion, the beginnings and growth of hip hop and the fusions of various genres while it was happening. But R&B has always been my first love. 

The first single that I ever bought with my own money as a kid was “I Want You Back” by the Jackson 5. The artists that caught my early attention were the Jackson 5, Stevie Wonder, Sly and the Family Stone, Earth Wind & Fire, Blue Magic, Honey Cones, Marvin Gaye, First Choice,  Parliament/Funkadelic. From there in college I got into Minnie Riperton, Denice Williams, Maze, Con Funk Shun, O’Jays and the entire Philly sound,  Natalie Cole,  Pleasure, and started getting into jazz artists like Quincy Jones, Stanley Clarke, Roy Ayers, Ramsey Lewis, Crusaders, McCoy Tyner and Grover Washington Jr.  I must say I was also influenced by my older brother Patrick who was heavy into Aretha Franklin, James Brown, Nancy Wilson, Otis Redding, Jimmy Smith, The Temptations, Gladys Knight and the Pips and while my Mom and Dad were into Dionne Warwick, Diana Ross, Johnny Mathis, Ray Charles, Frank Sinatra and Lou Rawls.

We constantly hear that “there’s no more good R&B,” but there are so many established artists who are still dropping great albums. Why don’t they get the attention they deserve? Do you think there is ageism in R&B?

Rylic: Mmmm no, it’s just evolution. Over the years artists got better at doing things that were out of their norm. Those hip hop/r&b collabs that I was talking about before caused people from the other side of the fence to develop a curiosity and interest for that genre that they otherwise wouldn’t have touched. So now you have hip-hop artists bringing a R&B flair to their raps and R&B artists giving a little bounce to their arrangements. So you get to this point where the genres are starting to mesh and people are saying “bring back the good R&B, the real R&B” – but what they’re really saying is “bring back more of what I’m used to. There’s not much of that anymore.”

Nicolette: This question has so many answers. One part is that there’s a list of veteran R&B acts that have released great material over the years and the average consumer has no idea because it’s not put in front of them. You have to seek this great material like a scavenger hunt and most consumers don’t have the time and won’t make the time to do it. Then, there is some vets who attempt to sound like today’s popular sound, and it does not translate well to the younger audience. It has caused some vets who have been consistently great for decades to put out work that doesn’t match the greatness that people came to know them by.

Lastly, the blurring of the line of R&B and melodic rappers given the label of “R&B singers” has caused some vets to be in a place of uncertainty of whether to continue to do what works for them or take that leap to make an impact in today’s music, and they shouldn’t have to be in a place to do this. As far as ageism being an issue, to an extent, it is one. Ageism is an issue across music, but it comes into play with R&B when vets and even newcomers who don’t use the popular sounds are slapped with an Urban AC label and not given the platform to showcase what they have. And most of the time it is what consumers have been missing in today’s R&B.

Diane: Yes, there is ageism. I think because the younger generation might consider established artists’ sound as dated or the lyrics are too contrived or subtle. Or, they simply don’t have a certain “look.” In other words, I think established artists are overshadowed by more visual entertainers like Cardi B, Megan Thee Stallion, Normani, Beyonce (who put out an entire visual album) and others. As a result, legendary artists are forced to rely on their established audiences. It’s great that Verzuz is putting the spotlight on ‘90s performers like Xscape, Earth, Wind & Fire, Gladys Knight, Bobby Brown, SWV and The Isley Brothers. Verzuz proves there is a demand for nostalgia.

But, in an effort to stay relevant, established artists such as Keith Sweat, Stokely Williams and Raheem team up to go on concert tours, or they form supergroups like “The Chi” featuring Carl Thomas, Donell Jones and Dave Hollister. I guess there’s financial safety in numbers.

George:  To be honest for the last decade-plus, a lot of the more creative and interesting R&B music that has been released have from independent artists but with minimal or no budgets for marketing and promotion. So they have to be extra, extra creative. I agree though there have been many established artists who have been dropping great albums but it is figuring out how to cut through the vast amount of new music now released each week. Crazy it seems often the artists who do have some financial backing are not the most creative. 

Hip-hop has had the most influence on music culture for basically the last 30 years. Rarely do you see R&B/soul artists in the mainstream, while you will see hip-hop and pop artists on various late night and early morning talk shows.  You rarely hear R&B/soul artists on radio other than Urban AC, rarely on the Urban Mainstream or Pop formats Many of the Urban AC stations play so many oldies that even a hit on that format does not have a large impact because those songs don’t cross into other formats.

Sadly we are now in culture where many people wont even check for a new artist or new music if the Youtube views or streams are low. Growing up and even in the 90s and early 2000s there was an excitement, fun and desire among young people to feel that they “discovered” an artist early and wanted to help spread the word.  That desire is still there but nowhere like it used to be.

And YES, there is ageism on multiple levels – I felt there was a degree of ageism on these three following artists at the time  but two of them figured their own ways of overcoming that.  In 2009 “Pretty Wings” by Maxwell peaked at #33 on the Hot 100 and #1 UAC and Urban Mainstream.  In 2011  “Love On Top” by Beyoncé – despite hitting #1 UAC and #1 Urban mainstream and selling over 1 million singles – never got past #20 on the Billboard Hot 100 (which is primarily based on mainstream Pop airplay). In 2013  “Fine China” by Chris Brown peaked at #31 on the Hot 100, #10 Hot RnB/Hiphop  #3 R&B/Songs and was his lowest charted record in eight years. 

When these three songs were not being blasted on mainstream I suspected that R&B was being slowly minimized at mainstream radio.  There were other signs but these three artists with great songs, great sales were not heard the way they should have been in the mainstream. I remember some mainstream  critics at the time calling “Love On Top” and “Fine China”  retro.  Notice that since then both those artists have only occasionally embraced R&B/Soul since, despite both individually speaking about “bringing R&B back” to the mainstream.

I know the “giving flowers” phrase is overused, but it seems we only celebrate legends on two occasions, and it ain’t day and night – it’s during infrequent award show tributes and obituaries. How can we better support legends?

Diane: I think we can support R&B icons by attending concerts and buying new music. It helps that it’s that TV series and movies have featured Motown artists in soundtracks or the background. For example, “Scandal” would frequently weave classic songs by Stevie Wonder, Prince, Janet Jackson, James Brown, Nina Simone and other classic artists into many of its scenes. 

Also, “Summer of Soul,” a documentary (by QuestLove) on Hulu, highlights many R&B legends from the 60s and 70s that played at a series of concerts in Harlem. Not only do we learn about this buried treasure – “Black Woodstock” – nearly 50 years later, but it also enlightens viewers about these artists and their compelling lyrics/messages. Perhaps it will inspire them to learn more about these artists.

Plus, DJs including D-Nice and Questlove infuse a lot of 80s, 90s and 2000s music in their mixes on their Instagram Live pages, which also might inspire young and older listeners to add to their own playlists.

Rylic: We can support legends by bringing them into these creating sessions. Understand that they’re not gonna strike gold right away, but they’re a legend for a reason. They’ll find it. When that happens, they’ll be right there on the press circuits, at the award shows, playing in the background at brunch. Let them know the door is still open and they’ll find a way to fill up the space well. 

George: That is a great question. The world has changed tremendously and how people digest and consume music much differently than in the past.  We all collectively have to figure out how to help the veteran artists become even more modern media savvy. Now that we are open nationwide again, I would encourage artists and their representatives to offer to make appropriate playlists (which would include their music) for the restaurants, cafe’s, gyms, laundry mats, retail stores, etc., that they already support as customers.  

I also strongly feel that embracing Generation X, the so-called sandwich generation, is the key to elevating R&B and keeping the veterans relevant. That generation is often ignored in marketing, which I feel is a huge mistake. This generation is old enough to remember, respect and enjoy the legends but young enough that grew up during the hip hop golden age which influenced that last great era mainstream R&B. Young enough to still enjoy music passionately but also old enough that they have disposable income and influence on their own children. This generation also seamlessly has embraced the technology explosion. So much emphasis is put into millennials, which is fine, but should not be at the expense of the Generation X.

Nicolette: One way to support the vets who have been consistent is to follow them on these social media platforms like we follow the sites that gives us the latest tea on celebrities. There are legends that have adapted very well to the new promotional methods, and they do use Instagram to announce new music and do promos leading up to the date. Some of this is on us as consumers and to make sure our vets are supported, just simply follow them and be there street team/ promoters. We can go the extra mile to see what our favorites are doing right now.

In the past year series like Verzuz have proven there’s a lane for veterans. Is there a way to translate that to more mainstream success, or should they just stay in the nostalgia role?

Rylic: Yes. I believe creativity is just curiosity. Once you stop being curious about something, you stop finding ways to make it better or see what it would sound like this way or that way – you stop creating. I’d say this is all up to the artist. When they see these modern artists in the comments praising them during the Verzuz, they should take note and try to collab with that fresh talent that looks up to them. The more they do that, the more they’re going to find something mainstream that fits them. 

George: It is my hope that VERZUZ actually evolves into a weekly variety show on one of the cable or streaming outlets.  The timing of VERZUZ introduction was brilliant as we were all home and on lockdown. It also showed that there is a very viable market for the veteran artists if people are aware.

Nicolette: The nostalgia not only works, but it helps. One thing that is always consistent is the increase of streaming numbers for the participating artists after Verzuz. I think what the participating artist should do more is make sure that they have some new work be released afterwards or announce new music is coming. Keep the momentum going beyond Verzuz.

Diane: Verzuz works because it’s nostalgic, and the artists have a large body of classics. It’s fun to watch these musical veterans battle it out while the audience relives their high school, college, and post-college years. There’s no way Lil Baby and DaBaby could battle it out with their best
songs because the show would only last an hour or less.

The allure of Verzuz is that established artists can showcase their musical catalog, and they have a solid fanbase that draws comments from celebrity Millennials and Gen Xers including Chris Rock, Michelle Obama and Viola Davis. It’s like you’re in an online club, enjoying the same music with them.
You asked how we can support our legends without tribute shows and obituaries, well, Timbaland and Swizz Beatz have found a way. I also think “Pass the Mic” is pretty cool, but I’m not sure how many younger viewers tune in.

There is an argument from younger fans who believe that 90s/2000s nostalgia is overrated and younger artists are held to unfair standards. Do you believe that’s true and, if so, how do we reconcile that?

Diane: I don’t listen to a lot of younger artists, and the ones I do listen to (H.E.R., Snoh Aalegra, Dua Lipa, DaniLeigh, Bruno Mars) were mentored or were inspired by established artists. 

I think younger artists will need to recognize that there’s a demand for R&B sounds, and with the calls for racial justice and BLM movements, I think there will be a surge of message songs similar to Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder. 

Nicolette: Yes and No. Yes, because some consumers will say a new artist is today’s [insert a 90’s artist here] and it puts extremely unfair pressure on new acts to deliver. No, because what made R&B lovers fall in love with the music was the quality of music that was around, and unfortunately that quality is not seen often now. Songs used to last for more than a verse and the hook. We would get two solid verses, a hook and a bridge. Today we’re barely getting a whole verse and a hook. Letting new artists evolve into their best self and the return of full song structure are parts of the reconciliation process.

George: One of the issues we have is the younger audience is not used to hearing RnB/Soul in the mainstream, whether it is heard on radio, seen on television or now on the mainstream blog influencer blog sites and playlists. So for many it is viewed and perceived as a small niche. The reality is now except for a handful of artists, everyone is in a niche and many niches are significant and growing. The timeline for everything now is faster and much shorter not to mention audience’s attention span.  

Rylic: Ehhh, I think that was a time of innovation, of doing things that weren’t done before. There was shock value and new car smell attached to those songs from the 90s/2000s because it wasn’t done before. Mariah was the first to do bring rappers onto R&B songs and that was happening mid 90s. So when you move into the 2000s, you’re stepping into an era of hip-hop/R&B crossovers. A golden era. So much was achieved then that it’s hard for new artists to wow us in the same way – that’s why they’re usually doing call backs to that time period with samples.

A little over 10 years ago, R&B was still topping the charts regularly. What will it take for R&B to return to that level again?

George: I still feel the need for more exposure on television. We rarely see R&B on television, meaning morning shows and late night talk shows. It is so strange to me now that growing up before cable with about 15 channels we had several regular music outlets, then with video shows on local TV, cable BET, VHI, MTV,  concert shows and variety shows. Now with all the streaming outlets and hundreds and hundreds of channels we do not have one regular show featuring live performances that is not a competition (The Voice, American Idol, America’s Got Talent, etc.). These shows have been on for years, I am sure there is a audience for performances.  It is my hope that VERZUZ actually evolves into a weekly variety show on one of the cable or streaming outlets.

Diane: I think there is a resurgence of R&B such as Lion Babe, Snoh Aalegra, H.E.R. and Daniel Caesar. Unfortunately, some of these singers get lost in the shadows of rappers and I hope they don’t get desperate and sink to the level of making stripper songs like “Thot Sh*t.” 

Nicolette: For the artist, and those in place to push music: In the words of T-Pain, “DO SOMETHING ELSE!” Although that quote was regarding today’s Hip-Hop acts, he could have switched the names out for R&B acts, and he still would have been absolutely correct. As far as the consumers, demand better. The power of social media has catapulted many to the spotlight that didn’t need it. That same influence can be used to push these great acts flying under the radar up to the top.

Rylic: It’s here. It’s doing it. It just got a little work done and looks slightly different that what we remember. 

Do you think ageism is holding back R&B or is the genre in a good place? Share your thoughts below.